39. CEO, Author, Speaker, Coach

Intro: Duration: (01:54)

Opening music jingle & sound effects

Jeff Hunt:

I'm Jeff Hunt, and this is Human Capital produced by GoalSpan. Today, we're going to talk about the smart, but very difficult leader. I'm guessing you probably know about this person, oftentimes they're not open to feedback, they may take credit for your ideas, and they believe themselves to be quite brilliant.

It's possible they're actually a top producer at your company, but nobody can get along with them. If you happen to work for one of these people, you might feel like you're always underperforming or walking on eggshells around them. My guest on the show today will share how these difficult leaders can, in fact, be transformed into powerful visionaries.

She will help us unpack what's underneath their challenging behavior and share some healthy ways we can interact with them. Dr. Katrina. Burrus is one of the world's leading experts on international leadership. Katrina received her MBA from the Thunderbird School of global management and her Ph.D. in human and organizational development from Fielding.

She is a Masters's certified coach, facilitates a mastermind group of international CEOs and her clients include Nestle, Novartis, and the United Nations. Katrina is the author of three books, abrasive leaders, global nomadic leaders, and managing brilliant jerks. Welcome Katrina.

Katrina Burrus:

Thank you. I'm delighted to be here on your show.

Jeff Hunt:

It's great to have you here. And if I remember correctly, you normally split your time between Switzerland and the US is that correct?

Katrina Burrus:

Yes. I live in the US now, but I have a lot of clients in Switzerland who are in international businesses. So yes, I do go back and forward.

Topic 1. Who or what inspired you the most in your career? (01:55)

Jeff Hunt:

Katrina before we discuss the brilliant jerk, which I can't wait to get into this topic because so many people don't know how to address it.

But before we do share with me the thumbnail of your career and life journey and who inspired you the most along the way?

Katrina Burrus:

I would say the thumbnail, I was in finance before, in Credit Swiss. Very much involved and dedicated hard worker. And then at one point, I decided that I didn't want to help people necessarily with their money.

I want it to help them on another level. And so, I quit, even though I was a high potential and I decided to find something else, but I really didn't know. So I left something that was well-paid for, without knowing where to go next. But then when I heard about coaching. I said that was it. That's what really I would like to do is to help people more on the behavioral, in the business context, because in finance you can get a higher value of a stock.

The management and leadership are considered to be excellent. And I was very curious. So I went to conferences. Where I could hear leaders speak and that really set me my interest, and coaching was a way to help those leaders as much as I could.

Jeff Hunt:

It sounds like you left Credit Swiss really to follow your passion.

Katrina Burrus:

That's right. Yes. Very well said

Jeff Hunt:

And was there one or more people that inspired you along the way?

Katrina Burrus:

Yes, the past CEO and chairman of Nestle, definitely inspired me very much so. I think it's a bit long to go into that story, but let's say his challenge and I provoked the challenge, not rewriting, but editing his speeches.

And he took me to the test. And so I started editing his speeches to his top 200 leaders. I would have paid to read it, but he did pay me to edit it. And so I must say that boosts my confidence. And I started really focusing on leaders.

Topic 2. The brilliant jerk (04:21)

Jeff Hunt:

There's almost always somebody in our lives that really provokes us to move in the direction of our passion. So, I love hearing that. Tell me how you originally got interested in this concept of the brilliant jerk.

Katrina Burrus:

For one, they cause a lot of suffering in the workplace, and because one, they're in a leadership position so they have a lot of power, and their behaviors cause a lot of suffering and turnover and cost to the company, but they are very motivated to do incredible results or their expertise is really valued by the company.

So the company really wants to keep them on, but it's becoming a real problem, a pain point for the company, for example, a hospital, courts, this cardiologist that's famous for years, and then finally manages to bring him on board. So, he does a fabulous job in the operating room, but no one wants to work with him.

And this can last for years and it's really a high cost for the organization or for the hospital.

Jeff Hunt:

So, it sounds like that often people will be recruited or promoted because of their functional expertise and competency, but they may not have leadership skills that are really rounded out. Is that correct?

Katrina Burrus:

Well, yes. And, also sometimes experts are, you know, they think because they're experts we'll promote them and of course, they'll disseminate their expertise, by osmosis well, many of these people love being expert or scientists for example and have no idea how to manage people. And so in fact, you're taking away from them, their expertise to be a leader of other people.

And they have to learn to not micromanage, to delegate, and when they get really stressed or insecure, what do they do? They go back and do the work themselves because it gives them immediate satisfaction. Instead, they have to step back, be a lot more strategic and work through people.

Not necessarily do the work. So, I find that a lot of them micromanage or they think they can do the work better, which they probably can, but they don't develop people or they have difficulty developing a successor. So it has repercussions on the organization, even if the person's not toxic, but just simply a very good expert and loves his job.

Jeff Hunt:

What are some others, I mentioned some of these behaviors in my intro, about how they show up at work. Maybe they take credit for your ideas. They might not be open to feedback, or you feel like you're walking on eggshells. What are some other behaviors that you've seen in this type of person?

Katrina Burrus:

So I don't want to underestimate the cause and the suffering they have on victims.

And I'll give you an example. One, this was fellow was a top executive for a multinational company. Experienced leader, but his boss was toxic towards him and he was going through personal issues. He was one of the best speakers in his company. And every year at the end of the year, he would give an encouraging speech for the next year.

But when he calls me, he says Katrina, I don't know what's happening to me. I don't like to ask anybody for help, but you know my boss and something weird is happening because people say I'm acting strangely. I can't finish my sentences and I have a lot of rashes on my body. So, they can come to that degree of stress level and of course, they're not performing because they're stressed or like this incredible speaker.

Couldn't even really finish a sentence. Imagine how unproductive was at work for this high achiever in normal circumstances.

Topic 3. The 4 horsemen (08:44)

Jeff Hunt:

So that makes me think of John Gottman's four horsemen. And for those of you that are not familiar with this. John Gottman coined this term, the four horsemen, and these behaviors, I believe have high predictability in the area of divorce in couples or breakdowns in relationships.

And they include criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. And so I'm wondering if Katrina, the four horsemen behaviors are sometimes present with this type of individual who actually might be quite smart, as you said, and valued for their competency, but difficult to get along with.

Katrina Burrus:

I would say relationships are basically fluid.

They should be fluid. It's an in and out and you adapt each time. And I would say that one of the coaching outcomes is to make the leader adapt his leadership to the circumstances. The context and the person, otherwise it's like playing the piano, always on one side of the piano and reacting, always the same way to the same situation or person.

So it's really developing their array of reactions to the leadership. So that's already relationship is fluid and should be, and the leadership should be fluid. Then you see criticism. Basically, it's I'm right you're wrong. So they're not very open to listening to others and maybe the other person is wrong, but what is a leader?

A leader should help the thinking of the other person to develop them, to have options, to develop the best strategy. And if they just criticize without any support or any. Let's say enticing them to find an answer with respect so that their best thinking comes to the table. Then, then you're limiting that relationship and the potential, the other person that I would say about criticism, the other one is contempt.

Well, contempt is really judging the other and undervaluing their potential. And so, if you give that contempt and a lot of brilliant jerks think, the other people are stupid or they're incompetent or whatever. So I would say they use contempt, instead of really thinking wait my role here is to develop them to help them be better.

And it doesn't mean that if they are not as competent, it shows on me. It's separate, you know, like a two-year-old, nothing separate everything's about them, but with age, you make a difference between your identity and the other, and that is sometimes the contempt is, it's not believing in the other person.

So that's limiting them. I would say then that you mentioned the defensiveness. Defensiveness is, first of all, you don't really listen to the other person as I hear it. And you give the authority to the other person and you don't take responsibility. So, if you don't take responsibility and it's the other person's fault.

Nothing changes. And you can find us an adult of sense that it's everybody else's fault. And I think that's a developmental issue too, to say, okay, maybe part of it was the other person's fault, but what did I contribute to make this happen? What was it? So even that question should be asked. And so I think defensiveness is really limiting even the coaching possibility.

The person accepting the responsibility and then stonewalling, which I just learned the word from you. So it's a shutdown you told me. So a shutdown, I would say when someone feels threatened, if you related to the animal world, there's a fight, flight, or freeze. Stonewalling is really shutting down.

And it's a bit of a flight strategy. It's not accepting the situation going the other way. So, communication in a relationship is super important, whether it be in a couple or even at work.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah. And what I'm taking away from you is that fluidity is really key. So having this sort of back and forth and the ability to adjust based on the circumstances and the person, the other thing I'm just reflecting on Katrina as you were sharing, that was that the difference with the criticism is if you add constructive to that, then it can become helpful.

Right? So if your constructive criticism or constructive feedback, or sometimes they even say feedforward, because we're making it more future-focused. That can be very developmental and helpful, but just stripped-down criticism can be very problematic.

Katrina Burrus:

Yes. And I would add to that to make the difference between a brilliant jerk and an inspiring leader is that the brilliant jerk, the employee comes with a problem and they perceive it as a personal threat to their credibility to them.

And so, they react by dominating by threatening, being destructive on a personal level. So, it becomes they are incompetent or whatever. The difference between an inspiring leader is that the same employee comes with the same problem, but they step back and analyze the situation. Is it the person that they're incapable of doing it because it's too overwhelming?

But they made the best effort and then they will give them support or diminished the project so that they can succeed. The objective is for that person succeeds. And to give them what they need to be able to succeed, even reducing a project or stepping back and saying, Hmm, this person is very competent, but is unmotivated.

Or is going through a personal problem. And so they have a heart-to-heart discussion, so to a different type of approach. And if I could summarize it, it's really leadership agility. As the relationship between couples is fluid as well every relationship, I would say in a business context, I would call it leadership agility to adapt to the situation of the person.

An inspiring leader is really relating to what the person is doing to a bigger picture, a vision and the outcome, which has a consequence often of giving meaning to what the person is doing and their daily life and they can see the bigger picture.

Topic 4. Transforming a brilliant jerk into an inspiring leader, helping people become more aware (16:02)

Jeff Hunt:

That's great. I love that. I'll say one more thing about the four horsemen, but contempt, I believe often can show up in the form of things like eye-rolling. If your manager is rolling their eyes, as you're saying something, that's really a version of contempt and nobody likes to receive that.

I guess my question around these is, is it a matter of increasing the self-awareness of this person who's exhibiting these behaviors, helping them to become more aware of the impact they're having on those around them?

Katrina Burrus:

So you gave a perfect example of one of my case cases is this brilliant woman, but interpersonally demotivating or toxic or whatever.

She was very, very bright. And of course, for people that were newer to the company or didn't have her corporate knowledge, or even weren't as sharp as her, she would have her employees walk three steps behind her and when they ask questions, she would go.

Jeff Hunt:

The big sign,

Katrina Burrus:

Big sign, roll her eyes. Now, was she aware of it?

No, she wasn't. So sometimes the reaction of contempt is non-verbal and they are not aware that they're even doing it. It's not an intent per se, because it's not premeditated, but it's a reaction part of the process of transforming brilliant jerks and transpiring leaders is making them aware of the verbal and non-verbal they do and the consequences have on people.

Jeff Hunt:

Let's stay on this topic for a little longer. How do you actually transform a brilliant jerk into an inspiring leader?

Katrina Burrus:

That might take a session in itself, but let me give you the key points first. First, it’s developing self-awareness coaches work before they start the coaching needs to know the cultural awareness of the company, what is accepted? What is good leadership? What is condoned, how decisions are made?

How do they promote people? etcetera. But let's say the first four, the brilliant jerk as I call them affectionately, by the way, is a self-awareness. Then they need to be the next step. And that's a whole process because of even the self-awareness that psychometric inventories its feedback its etcetera.

Then boss awareness, to be more aware of how they're different or similar to their boss, making them take the time to really know on our more intuitive level, what they're doing and not doing. So that is all the inventories that they do on the first step. They applied to their boss intuitively and then develop it also their triad meeting.

So, I observed. And observing their behavior with their boss, the boss's expectations, etcetera, the usual thing. And then it stakeholder awareness, make them aware of how they're perceived on a wider frame with that. It gives them incredible tools, how they're perceived and then. How they behave in a team. So I call it team awareness.

So, these are all processed to increase gradually their awareness, and then to execute and developmental plan and involve their system, their environment. And then also what's the next step to be inspiring with all this self-awareness to grow it to that level. So it's important that stakeholder awareness is part of the process because I can get the details of like this woman that walked three steps in front of her employee rolled their eyes and side.

I can get that degree of information for this leader so that they know they're very smart, so they know what to do and practice it. The other thing is each company has its own culture. And so they need to be aware of the culture so that, and the people need to wear that they're doing a leadership development program because if they're brilliant jerks and they all of a sudden try to be nice, it's going to be pretty awkward at first and people if they have the mindset that they're jerks, will push them back.

And think there are manipulating them, but if they have the mindset that, this person has realized that they're really going to work on their behaviors, then it will already bring a different attitude to the stakeholders.

Jeff Hunt:

It's almost as if you're saying they need a sense of authentic humility among their team and their stakeholders in order to have it stick effectively.

Katrina Burrus:

Humility about the stakeholders?

Jeff Hunt:

Their willingness to be vulnerable and admit that they have caused some problems associated with some of their behaviors.

Katrina Burrus:

Yes. And the feedback has to be so good and so factual and so descriptive that usually, they're in shock. So if they're in shock, in some ways, it's a good thing, because that means the intent wasn't to hurt. a psychopath is a sickness. I'm talking about people that often have huge pressure on themselves to perform, and don't realize that their behavior can be extremely toxic.

And also it's gotta be the stakeholder awareness is also extremely important to not use traditional 360-degree feedback. For two reasons essentially, there's a lot more, but one people can probably determine who said what by the comments. It's a lot easier, the language hasn't been specially neutralized and the thing is it's on a scale of one to five.

Well, if they get 2s, okay, they know they don't communicate well, but what does that mean? I want to get the description enough that they can say, oh, okay. That's what I do. Okay. Next time, I'll be more aware that I'm doing this. I never noticed it. And then you can work on that behavior.

Jeff Hunt:

If you're in an organization that really has one of these high performers that you want to retain and transform.

Are there things that you need to be aware of or potential mistakes that you can make when trying to convince this person to accept coaching?

Katrina Burrus:

Yes, I would say one before they accept to be coached. It's a very scary process and they have to be courageous because I'm coaching people throughout the organization.

And I want to say what's just as important as where they excel because they're going to win on what they excel. But then what are these noises? What are these rumors around that are really impeding them from progressing in the company? So there are a lot of mistakes. And when you coach them, it's important not to be the spokesperson, a coach is a catalyst.

It sort of makes things happen, but it's not part of the company we come from outside. So if someone tells me I'm going to fire this person if they don't change in six months, which often they do. Don't be the spokesperson. And I had to learn the hard way in my early career because I wanted to protect the person and they were talking about firing him.

I said, oh, maybe he's not taking this seriously enough. So I communicated it. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. That was a mistake. It's really, you have to encourage management and help them tell them but don't intercept what leadership should be doing. And then this case, well, the company bought another company and this person was the best expert in this field.

And so they promoted him finished. I stopped the coaching. That was a strategic decision they made, but my credibility was, I didn't even want to continue. That's one, not being the spokesperson. The other is fact battling. For example, I had a client that became outraged very easily. If you saw he was in the construction building and he saw the site that was very disorganized and he saw after hours, he went there to check it out and he saw somebody on his phone.

And he went up to the person, that nothing had been put into its place, took the phone, throw it at broken a thousand pieces. Then the person who went to HR was very upset that he broke his phone and lost control. And of course, HR calls him and says, what did you do? He says he dropped his phone.

That's all, the thing is to be a neutral researcher. To listen to both parties and really listen with respect to the people that have been hurt by it and to the leader by saying, how does he see? Or how does she see the situation? So not being contaminated by the feedback you get, trying to stay neutral.

And if you have to step out of the process for a while, then do so.

Topic 5. Is it time to coach or to cut ties? (26:02)

Jeff Hunt:

Great. Well, a couple more questions and we'll switch to some lightning round questions, but one of them that I think is a helpful one. You were just talking about possibly firing one of these people, the situation where you get to the point where you actually have to let them go.

How does an organization know when it's time to cut ties instead of continuing to work through some sort of coaching arrangement.

Katrina Burrus:

First of all, I can save some of my experience when I'm hired to coach somebody like that I have to determine if they're just trying to do a coaching program to give them good conscious, but they've already made the decision to fire the person.

And then I don't take the mandate. The other is to determine if the person does change according to expectation, what's the benefit for the person. And if they tell me, we'll give you six months, you cut the time in half for them to show results. They have to really perceive the behavioral change, the processes that you evaluate at the beginning, and you evaluate it at the end and determine if it's well perceived, how this person has changed.

Jeff Hunt:

So if you play the movie forward on transforming the leader into one who is truly inspiring, what are the characteristics and behaviors that you see show up?

Katrina Burrus:

What is the characteristic? Well, this lady that threw her eyes up inside, was shocked when she received it. She was crying really just shaking.

You know, I didn't realize other things that were on there. And she made an effort. In the beginning, it was being aware that she has these triggers where she's out of control, especially when her status is questioned or she feels that someone attacked her status. So, she had to be made aware, but that's not good enough.

They have to then find different behaviors that are more conducive, be more aware of how they might be perceived to be able to really, really change. And this lady was selected as the candidate for the best leader of the company by the very people that criticized her. So, they saw the difference.

It takes a lot of work though and takes time.

Jeff Hunt:

But it's very inspiring on its own, right? To hear that provides hope because I think sometimes people get in these situations for such a long period of time where they're exposed to or having to deal with this type of difficult person. And so they end up losing hope.

But what you're saying is that there is hope for change.

Katrina Burrus:

There is hope, but the company has to do something about it. And a lot of times they lose hope because the company will accept destructive behavior because they were getting the results that they want. Because, if they don't like they have an avoidant leader that doesn't do anything about it, that’s scared of this brilliant jerk.

And they see the brilliant jerk go up in the hierarchy because he does get results. Then what happens? People emulate them. That's sending the wrong message.

Jeff Hunt:

So you end up with an organization potentially of brilliant jerks like promotes that right?

Katrina Burrus:

Yes, because they think that's the way to succeed.

Topic 6. Lighting round questions (29:35)

Jeff Hunt:

Well, let's shift into some lightning-round questions. I'm going to ask you a few questions. Just give me your top-of-mind answer. The first one is what are you most grateful for Katrina?

Katrina Burrus:

I'm most grateful for my mother cause I have four brothers and a very paternalistic father and she always believed in me and made them the person I am today.

Jeff Hunt:

That's special. What is the most difficult leadership lesson you've learned over your career?

Katrina Burrus:

That you don't take the place of management. You help management have the courage to say certain things, help them express themselves in a constructive way. You're a catalyst.

Jeff Hunt:

Really empowering others, it sounds like.

Katrina Burrus:

Empowering others yes, and helping others, which I love to do.

Jeff Hunt:

Who is one person you would interview? If you could living or not?

Katrina Burrus:

That's the hardest question you've asked so far. There are so many people I want to interview. I love to interview people that are visionaries. Like the number two of CERN at the time.

It's 20, 30 years in advance. Number two of Monsanto, many years ago had the vision of seeing the food situation in 20, 30 years. Peter Brabeck, who was the past CEO and chairman of Nestle sees the transition from being operational as CEO, and then being a chairman and seeing how the company intervenes in Europe, in the world, and water and what are the water issues that are very inspiring and I'm very lucky to have interviewed them

Jeff Hunt:

By the way to all our listeners, you have your own podcast, right? What's the name of that podcast in case they want to go listen?

Katrina Burrus:

It’s called excellent executive coaching. And my new podcasts are very excited about trying to interview these top-notch leaders that are quite visionary. It will be called "Excellent international executive", thank you for asking Jeff

Jeff Hunt:

What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Katrina Burrus:

To stand up for your values.

Jeff Hunt:

And if you had to summarize this talk, what are the most important takeaways for our listeners today?

Katrina Burrus:

I think for the victims of brilliant jerks you have to step back to realize that the brilliant jerk has issues.

They grew up in certain ways, and the pressure of performing, being great or they only get loved if they're performing. To understand that they have issues and not internalize the toxic behavior. And if they do and start getting sick or not being able to breeze or being absent, they should move.

Because health is very important and their well-being. That means the toxicity has gone into their system and you don't want that, but if they can extrapolate the issue is the other person and see why that person is behaving that way because they feel threatened by something. Then puts the problem on them and then they can be more strategic in how they approach them.

Jeff Hunt:

Katrina. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you so much for bringing all this wisdom to the Human Capital podcast.

Katrina Burrus:

Thank you, Jeff. Thank you so much for your awesome questions.

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Outro(33:18)

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Jeff Hunt:

Thanks for listening to the show this week. We release new episodes every other Tuesday. Let me know what you thought of this episode by emailing humancapitalgoalspan.com. Human capital is produced by GoalSpan. Subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts. And please share this podcast with your colleagues, team, or friends. Thanks for being human kind.