81. Talking on Eggshells

**Jeff Hunt:** I'm Jeff Hunt, and this is the Human Capital Podcast, sponsored by GoalSpan. I'm excited to return after taking a wonderful vacation to Greece, to witness my niece getting married in one of the most breathtaking wedding venues that I've experienced in my lifetime. I have now recharged my batteries, and I'm excited to get back to the podcast. Today, I want you to think back over the course of your career. It doesn't matter whether you're a manager, an employee, or individual contributor, or an executive in the C-suite. Can you remember a time when you avoided a conversation with someone and the outcome of avoiding that did not go well? Our ability to lean in healthy ways to difficult conversations is critically important to living a life that's in alignment, both at work and at home. This is ensuring that your internal thoughts, feelings, and beliefs are aligned with what you say and do. And I'm not giving license to speak whatever you're thinking or feeling, but having intentional self-awareness that allows you to advocate for yourself and others to receive you in a way that works well for both of you, regardless of whether you disagree. Today, I'm inviting Sam Horn to the show to discuss this topic with me. And Sam is a renowned communication strategist. She's an author and a keynote speaker. Sam is celebrated for her insights into the art of effective communication and relationship building. She has dedicated her career to helping individuals and organizations communicate more clearly and connect more deeply. Sam is the CEO of the Intrigue Agency and she has authored several acclaimed books including Tung Fu, Pop, and her latest release Talking on Eggshells, which I'm excited to discuss with Sam today. Sam's expertise is sought after by leaders and teams across industries. She's delivered TEDx talks and has been featured in major media outlets, such as the New York Times, Forbes, and Fast Company. Some of my questions today will focus on the context of business relationships. One of the complications in business relationships is the power dynamic between employees and managers. This dynamic can make employees feel uncomfortable bringing up difficult issues with their managers. But similarly, managers might struggle to address underperformance, feeling unwilling or afraid to confront employees in a healthy way, or not knowing how to do so. Welcome, Sam. **Sam Horn:** Thanks, Jeff. I've been looking forward to our conversation today. ### Topic 1 Who or what inspired you along the way? (02:51) **Jeff Hunt:** Me too. I have to tell you, I'm so excited to talk about your book, Talking on Eggshells. By the way, I love that title and you'll have to tell us a little bit about that before we jump in. Sam, give me a thumbnail of your career journey. How did you end up where you are today? **Sam Horn:** Well, can you say "serindestiny", which is my word that it has been a stepping stone of, uh, following something that intrigued me that I felt was needed, that I had some skills in. And so I started off working with rod labor and the tennis industry, and then ended up working for open University in Washington, D. C., and just suffice it to say one day, I saw the word concentration used six times on the front page of the sports section. Chrissy Everett said it was why she won the U. S. Open. I was so intrigued, I thought, you know, we all wish we could concentrate better, and I've never seen any books on that topic. I've never heard anyone speak, so I gave a public workshop. 13 people came up at the end and said, please come speak for our corporation or convention. My whole career has stemmed from that specific, seeing something that mattered, being interested in it, thinking it added value, doing a deep dive into it, and then offering workshops on it and books. **Jeff Hunt:** I love that. Was there any one person or people that inspired you along the way? **Sam Horn:** You know, I'm going to say Rocket. Do you play tennis by any chance, Jeff? **Jeff Hunt:** I'm a very casual tennis player, so yes. **Sam Horn:** Okay, well, if you know, he won the grand slam of tennis twice, which is Australian, French Open, Wimbledon, and then the US Open. And he was this lovely duality of, he was a very hard worker, you know, his left arm was twice as big as his right arm. He was renowned for his work ethic. And yet he was one of the most gracious individuals I have ever met. If he went running on the beach and so forth, and someone stopped and said, I saw you play, and he would always have time for them. And I really learned a lot from him about how we can be the quality of person we want to be and the quality of professional they go hand in hand. ### Topic 2. How to reframe fear and promote authenticity (04:59) **Jeff Hunt:** That's wonderful. Now, you've written a number of books, but today we're going to discuss talking on Eggshells. Like I said, I love the title. How'd you come up with that title? **Sam Horn:** You know, I think, you know, I wrote a book called Tung Fu more than 20 years ago, still selling around the world. And when I was giving Tung Fu workshops a year, a few years ago, people were saying, you know, Sam, it's like, I just feel like I'm tiptoeing around people these days, every it's. So polarizing, so divisive. It's like people are at each other. I can't say anything without people jumping on me. I just feel like I'm tiptoeing around people. And I said, well, you're not walking on Eggshells. You're talking on Eggshells that resonated. And that was the title. **Jeff Hunt:** That makes sense. Well, as you know, and you and I discussed before starting the podcast is generally business focused and, I think that the culture that exists in an organization is one that can be one of talking on Eggshells. Or it can be one of open conversations and dialogue and authentic communication and grace filled responses. And you talk a lot about this in your book, but one of the things that I was noticing was that fear is often a factor in the person's unwillingness to speak up. And I'm wondering if you can share a little bit about what are the ways that to, to reframe fear to promote more authentic conversations. **Sam Horn:** It's Jeff, you know that I believe in juxtaposing ideas, right? It's like, so unless someone's driving, I hope they get paper right now and put a vertical line down the center because what we're going to do is to show in the left hand column these beliefs and these behaviors that do not work. And then over on the right, here are beliefs and behaviors that do work. So over on the right, put conflict diverse. And as, as you said, 65 percent of people identify as being conflict-diverse. They actually avoid it. They assume it's going to like blow things up, that, that it's going to make things worse. And so they just, they just don't do it. Well, over on the right. How can we address conflict instead of avoid it, right? How, instead of being confused, how can we be clear about what to say? And so, shall we just jump right into a technique we can do right now? Okay, let's put the word conflict on the left. Because, see, Einstein said that we cannot solve a problem with the same thing. thinking that caused it and I think we can't solve a problem with the same language that caused it. And since many people are conflict-averse and that is a trigger word for them, which is why they avoid it, let's start thinking of conflicts as clarifying conversations. So instead of avoiding, we ask. And if we start thinking instead of going in with assumptions, it's like, you know, well, you were late for that meeting. Obviously you didn't care. It's like you dropped the ball on that. Obviously it was, you were too busy, et cetera. Those are all assumptions and they all lead to conflicts, which are these opposing positions. Correct. Look, what happens if we ask is like, why were you late for the meeting? I'm so sorry. I had an emergency. Oh, now we have understanding, right? It's like, is there a reason why you didn't follow up with that client? Well, now, if we ask, instead of assume, we're creating a clarifying conversation that's leading to understanding and to compassion, instead of to impatience and contempt. **Jeff Hunt:** That's great. And what you're indirectly referring to as I'm reflecting on this is creating connection with one another, which oftentimes in fear based relationships or fear based cultures at work, that disconnection or the objectification is what leads to the biggest problems in the avoidance of these difficult conversations and dot, dot, dot underperformance. This is where, you know, there's kind of a very clear. Connection to performance. Wouldn't you say? **Sam Horn:** 100%? In fact, let's put reactive on the left. Let's put proactive on the right and let's put contempt on the left and compassion on the right. And now let's give words to this because we can agree with something intellectually, right? If we don't know what to say the situation, we avoid it. We're back to avoidance, right? So here's a 60 second, one of my favorite stories is that, I have a friend who is volunteering at a hospital and this was during COVID. And I said, do you, can you think of a stressful situation you were in? She said, I don't even have to think about it. A woman came in holding her phone up and she said, my daughter's in the ER. She said, I need to get in and see her. Well, you probably remember the rules in COVID. She called the ER. There was somebody already with the daughter and there's only like one patient or no patients, per person a day, she had to give that bad news to the mother and the mother lost it. She's screaming. She's crying now over on the left, put the words, how rude. How rude. Why are you blaming me? This isn't my fault. This is so unfair. I don't deserve this. You see the rabbit hole we go down when we think how rude we react, etc. Instead, my Aunt Kay said four words. Do you know what she said? **Jeff Hunt:** What's that? **Sam Horn:** She said to herself, how would I feel? How would I feel if my daughter was in the ER? And someone told me I couldn't get in to see her. And Jeff, it moved her from contempt to compassion, from impatience. To empathy and it moved her from there's nothing I can do. It's not my fault to let me see if there's something I can do. She called the ER. She said, who's with the daughter? They said it was the Uber driver who had brought the young woman in. Kate was able to explain the situation to him. Thank him. He left and the mom was able to get to the daughter. So do you see the rabbit hole on the left and the ripple effect on the right is that we ask Often and when we say is there something I can do instead of nothing I can do It ends up being a win for all involved **Jeff Hunt:** Absolutely. I'm just reflecting on the difference between uh, one thought process is binary it's yes, no right wrong black, white the other process is open and nuanced and inquisitive and curious and I'm also reflecting Sam on the importance of this one question that you just served up which is: How would I feel relative to an organization's ability to improve their customer service? Wouldn't you say? **Sam Horn:** It's so true. It's like, I mean, I don't know anyone who likes to be yelled at. Do you know anyone who likes to be yelled at? And if we're on the front line, and as something, somebody didn't get something that was promised when it was promised. And so we're the contact, right? We're hearing about it. And once again on the left is all of this. Why are they blaming me? I didn't have anything to do with this. It's just our policy. I'm doing the best I can. Rabbit hole. And if they say, well, how would I feel if I was just told that my plane was canceled and now I'm not going to be able to get to my child's wedding? How would I feel if I had been, on planes for 12 hours, and I was just told that they don't have any hotel vouchers and I'm going to be sleeping it. We may not like or agree. With the news that's being given us, we understand it though. And we're a lot less likely to kill the messenger. **Jeff Hunt:** Exactly. I'm thinking of a great example in business that where customer service embodies this, and it's really Southwest airlines, you know, I've flown a lot over the course of my lifetime and many airlines will take this binary approach, no, we can't. This is the rule period. End of story. Whereas often Southwest Airlines, at least they're compassionate. So even if you hear a no, we can't do that. If somebody offers up kindness and compassion, and maybe even reflects back to you, what is most challenging to you, you walk away feeling better about it. Right. **Sam Horn:** And let's give two words over on the right that can really help. I wish look at the difference between, I wish I could get you on that flight. I know what you're doing. And now we use the word and instead of, but right, because if we say, well, I'm sorry that happened, but well, I know it's important to you, but yes, we promise that. But. Actually, that word, but is contributing to our cancel culture and it creates conflicts. And when we say, and it's a bridge instead of blocking communication, it's advancing conversations instead of anchoring them in an argument. ### Topic 3. Communication styles and their impact (14:21) **Jeff Hunt:** Exactly. Now, one of the things you discuss in the book, Sam, are these different communication styles, avoidance, accommodating, anger, and assertion. Can you talk a little bit about these communication styles, and how they impact our relationships? **Sam Horn:** Number one is we asked what was modeled for us. Because as Albert Schweitzer said in influencing others, example is not the main thing. It's the only thing. So we inherited our parents style unless we choose to use it as incentive rather than excuse. Because see, if we had parents that argued all the time, we may have gone to the other end, right? And we don't want to argue. If we had parents that were very passive or one parent that was very dominating, maybe we thought, okay, I want to get my way. So I'm going to do that instead of just So our style is often what was modeled for us, unless we consciously adopt, I call it conflict addressing, right? Instead of avoiding and angering and accommodating. And can I give you like one of my best examples of this? It is you and I had talked about performance evaluations and let's talk about employees making mistake on the job. Because if we're training new people, they're trying a new task, they have a new system, things are going to go wrong, right? Well, over on the left, put mistake or wrong. And Elvis Presley said, when things go wrong, Don't go with them. You know yet often what we do when someone makes a mistake or in a performance appraisal we point out what they did wrong, right? Well, it's like do you know anyone who can undo the past? And as my dad said we can't motivate people to do better by making him feel bad And pointing out people's mistakes telling them what they did wrong telling them what they should have done all serves No Good purpose. Over on the right, instead of using on the left the word like should, put on the right next time, from now on, in the future, because see now we're being a coach instead of a critic. We are shaping behavior instead of shaming behavior. We're focusing on how they can do it right next time instead of what they did wrong this time, and we're motivating people to do better instead of making them feel bad. **Jeff Hunt:** I so appreciate you bringing this up, Sam. Obviously I run a performance management software company. Performance reviews are among the most anxiety-producing for both employees and managers and what you're describing as a much healthier approach of forward-focused coaching oriented conversations rather than rear-view mirror punitive, who would want that? It's understandable why that would be anxiety-producing, right? For both the employee and the manager. **Sam Horn:** And in fact, John F. Kennedy had a wonderful quote about this. He said, our task is not to fix the blame for the past. It is to fix the course for the future. So I hope everyone listening is thinking of a performance appraisal is thinking of an employee that's underperforming is thinking of a staff member that's dropping the ball. And think about it, we don't even ask, why is this happening? Because often that anchors the conversation in the past, doesn't it? And that's where the finger-pointing begins. Well, it's not my fault. It's been held up in accounting for the last six weeks. It's like, well, Charlie, the one who was, who did whatever. No, no, no. Look what happens when we say so what can we do to prevent this from happening in the future? How can we handle this more efficiently next time? What can we do to re-approach that customer and assure them that, do you see how this is face-saving? Because I don't know anyone who likes being scolded or lectured or once again criticized. However, most people want to do better. And when we are asking how we can do things more efficiently, effectively, and collaboratively in the future, we rise to that. We shrink when criticized. **Jeff Hunt:** You're really describing the difference between a growth mindset and a fixed mindset. **Sam Horn:** And I tell you, Jeff, can we go there for a second? Because of course, it's such brilliant work, because a fixed mindset is passive. It's like, well, it's just the way it is. We can't grow, we can't learn things. This is just the way we do things, right? And it is so harmful. Over on the right, a growth mindset is possibility thinking. It means that if we put our minds to it, we can come up with a better way. That if we collaborate, that we're going to get better results. And once again, this is a lose lose over on the left, this fixed mindset. The growth mindset is really a win win and it's not Pollyanna. It's just the truth of how. We can go first and set the precedent. And as you said, it's not just grace, because grace is nice. Kindness, compassion, empathy are nice. This is a business world though, right? So it needs to be bottom line. It needs to be pragmatic. And that's why this proactive grace, instead punitive, no it's moving together toward a future that serves all involved. **Jeff Hunt:** And what you're saying, it does never, I should say, it doesn't avoid accountability. We're still holding people accountable, maybe even up to and including termination. Like we may have to let somebody go, but it sounds like what you're saying is along the way. We're actually giving them multiple opportunities in a very clear and compelling way, so there's no ambiguity and we're doing it in a way that is very human oriented, correct? **Sam Horn:** I just so appreciate that you get the heart of this book. The heart of this book is why didn't they teach us this in school, Jeff? Come on. We learn math and science and history. We don't learn what to say when people blame us for something that's not our fault. When someone says, if I have to work with so and so, I'm out of here, right? Yes, exactly. So I really do believe that these responses on the right do hold both of us accountable, right? Instead of pointing the fingers, it's in both of our best interests to make this work. Let's figure out together how that can happen. Can I share another great example? Okay, put the words on the left, can't because right? And a lot of times people say can't we can I talk with so and so? No, you can't. He's on vacation. Can we move forward with this project? Well, no, you can't. The budget hasn't been approved yet. It's like, can we get this meeting started? No, we don't have our A. V. set up yet. The words can't because. are like a verbal door slamming in the other person's face. They will perceive that we are blocking them from what it is they want, which sets up resentment, resistance, and down the rabbit hole we go. Look what happens as soon as we put the words can as soon as. Over on the right. Yes, we can start the meeting as soon as we get our AV equipment set up and if it's You know, yes, you can talk with charlie He's on vacation this week and would you like to leave a message or call back on monday, yes, we can move that project forward. Let's call accounting. Let him know we're waiting to really approve the go ahead You know, do you see once again the words can as soon as put us on the same side the words can't because they pit us side against the side. **Jeff Hunt:** Absolutely. I love that. And listeners, by the way, there's, Sam has great structure in the book, which is very pragmatic. And in each chapter, Sam, you, at the end, you have this sort of, a juxtaposition that you're referring to for every chapter that has the words to Lose and the words to use is that how you phrase it or? **Sam Horn:** Yeah, because Jeff, it's like you and I both have our foot in both worlds, right? We want to once again be the quality of person we want to be and we want to be a bottom line professional That's getting the job done, And so here's an example. Let's put the words on the left You'll have to or you need to Because I know many of your listeners are leaders, project managers, executives, and often we think it's our job to tell people what to do. Well, do you know anyone who likes being ordered around? Especially seasoned people, who've been on the job for years, who are bringing a lot to the table. It's insane. It's insulting to their intelligence to just constantly be told, you need to get this done by four o'clock today is you need to get this done in triplicate. You need to get to death and in a way we feel like we're being treated like children and that you're not the boss of me kind of instinct rises up even if they are the boss of us. Right. Look what happens over on the right. If we put, could you please. Or would you? Instead of, you have to you have to talk with Barbara. She's the one who knows the system. Could you please talk with Barbara? She's the one who knows the system. It's well, you have to go ahead and run this through this, engineering first because they've got to sign off on all the permits. Could you please contact, Do you see once again, an ask instead of a order gives People, the incentive to cooperate instead of them complying reluctantly, they're collaborating more willingly ### Topic 4. Open communication vs closed communication (24:35) **Jeff Hunt:** And so much of what you're describing is the difference between open communication. and closed communication, right? **Sam Horn:** It is, in fact, you can put over on the left, resistance and resentment, because these are trigger words. They make us feel ordered around. They make us feel shut down. They make us feel people aren't listening. They make us feel like they're making us the problem. So, I mean, it can be one word sets up that rabbit hole. And resistance and resentment. So this is not petty. It really is pivotal. And do we have time for me to share another of my favorite stories? Because we've been talking about business and I'm going to bet that many of your viewers and community members are also parents or grandparents or aunts or uncles, right? So we'll give an example of how to do this. and the transformative impact it can have in less than 60 seconds. You ready? **Jeff Hunt:** Let's hear it. **Sam Horn:** Okay, so I'm visiting my son Andrew in New York and his one year old son, Hero, is crawling across the floor. There's a guitar stand over in the corner. He hauls himself up on the guitar, starts banging on the strings. Now, over on the left, Andrew could have yanked the guitar away. He could have no, he could have said, stop banging on the strings. He did none of that. He said one word. Do you know what it was? **Jeff Hunt:** What's that? **Sam Horn:** Gentle. Jeff, I saw Hiro's face transform in front of me. And he, he reached back to the guitar. He went strum, strum, strum. And there were bells on the window and he reached up. He went ring, ring. And Hiro made music in that moment because Andrew shaped his behavior instead of shamed it. He coached him instead of criticized him. He showed him how to do it right instead of making him feel bad for doing it wrong in one word. **Jeff Hunt:** What a great story and a great sort of testimony. And there's no reason why we can't. do that at any age, uh, with any person. If, but it, it seems as though one of the things that's required is this situational awareness, this sort of ability to have self-awareness Based on the situation, even in the context of your son and your grandson. But if you put it in the context of business, it's exactly the same thing. And this seems to be a core tenet throughout your book. Talk about situational awareness and the importance of it. **Sam Horn:** Boy, yeah, I just love that you are you are excerpting, you're highlighting and showcasing the concepts that are really at the core of our connective culture instead of our cancel culture. And one, as you're saying, is this whole idea of ISA, interpersonal situational or social awareness. And Nelson Mandela said it best, he said, We've got to stop pulling people out of the river. We've got to go upstream and find out where they're falling in, right? **Jeff Hunt:** Yeah, right. **Sam Horn:** I call this communication chess. Because, we don't just walk into a meeting and wing it. We do our homework. It's like, all right, who's on board? Who's dragging their feet on this? Who's the real decision maker? It's like, did they just get bad news? And no matter what I propose, the answer is going to be no. No. See, if we think upriver if we think what will be the reception, maybe we have the answer to this. However, if we just barge in, maybe they're going to say no, just because they want to be in control, right? So all of those factor in, and to the degree we have this forethought, we think upriver, is to the degree we anticipate Resistance or receptivity, and we can say what we want in a way that people are open to it instead of won't even consider it. **Jeff Hunt:** I love that example and how you shared that because what's coming to mind for me is perhaps the CEO that needs to come into An executive team meeting to share really bad financial news. That's going to have an impact on people's lives. And the CEO can come in in a way where she's brash and short and delivers information only, or she can take this situational awareness into consideration. And deliver the news with a little bit more compassion, even though it's difficult. And one method is connecting and one is disconnecting, right? **Sam Horn:** 100%. And once again, remember those words, I wish, instead of saying, these are the facts, we can say, I wish I had better news. I wish that we had other options and believe me, we have explored all of the options and this is what we need to do. And this is how together we can, so I do believe that once again, language matters. Let's talk about an all hands meeting because you're talking about giving bad news and I was brought in by Cisco to speak to their learning channel and I'll always remember you know from the book that we have plan, which is how we can walk into a session and W5 it instead of wing it. And so on this W5 form, it is, it's like, okay, when and where is this communication going to take place? Well, he said it's four 30 on a Friday afternoon. I said, wow. They're going to have one foot out the door. **Jeff Hunt:** Absolutely. **Sam Horn:** The first words out of your mouth are going to be, I can only imagine, not I know you're thinking. Feel how presumptuous that is. **Jeff Hunt:** That's right. **Sam Horn:** I can only imagine, right? You're thinking it's 4:30 on a Friday afternoon. These things normally take an hour or two, which puts you right out in the middle of rush hour traffic. We have distilled this to under half an hour. I promise you we're going to be out of here. Do you see how he can win buy-in just by anticipating the circumstances? And now another thing, by the way, part of that W 5 form is why will it be an ROI for them, right? What are their needs and values? What do they care about so that we're speaking their language? And then what are, what are our objectives? What do we want to have happen at the end? And so I said, Mike, I said, okay I see everything you put on your form. I said, how do you want your employees to feel at the end of this all-hands meeting? Now, Jeff, he's a Cisco guy, right? He completely, completely feel. It had not occurred to him. I said, yeah. I mean, it takes a lot of money to get all hands meeting and pulling people right. And he said, well, I guess I want him to feel proud. We had, a great year. We not only hit our numbers, we exceeded. I said, great. I said, what else? He said, well, I guess I want him to feel excited. We got a big launch coming up in Q1. And I said, wonderful. I said you think you might want to put pictures of people in your PowerPoint slides. Is Jeff, his whole deck, graphs, grids, numbers, et cetera. There was not one picture of a human being in that entire deck. Now this is not a Wednesday, the meeting was on Friday, and he was a quick study, so he got the Cisco company photographer to go around, here's the team that actually found the flaw, that they were able to correct before they shipped, right? The team has been putting in the 67 and so his entire deck honored the people that they were at the hands all hands meeting. He said people were going around high fiving each other at the end and it was because back to situational awareness he had thought about the situation. Why would people be unhappy? Why would they not listen? What did he want? How could he help make that happen? And it produced a result that once again Was a windfall involved. ### Topic 5. Healthy conflict (33:13) **Jeff Hunt:** What a simple change, if you think about it. These, many of these things are not complicated, they're simple. We just have to think about them and then we have an opportunity to do things differently. Thank you. As we, before we shift into some quick lightning round questions, uh, to wrap up, I want to put out there the leader who may be unsure about how they are personally doing in this area, how their team is doing, what sort of grade would they give themselves? Are they talking on Eggshells among their team or their culture organizationally, or do they really have a healthy. Speak up organization where people are able to engage in healthy conflict. I'm wondering if you have any advice or guidance for leaders that are trying to assess this to determine what should they do. Do they need to invest more in learning in this key area or not? **Sam Horn:** If they want to thrive, if they want to reduce turnover, the revolving door of employees voting with their feet or feeling Unheard, unseen, unrespected, et cetera. Absolutely investing in this, I think is the most direct way for our employees, our team members, coworkers to feel seen and heard and respected and understood. Which means they're self motivated to do their job better, to take better care of customers, to be more compassionate with their coworkers. So it's a direct bottom line ROI to invest in this. And, one thing too, you brought up Jeff is that, as you said, why doesn't this occur to us? Why are we in our thirties, forties, fifties, or sixties? And we're going, oh my gosh, I just did that this morning. So that's why I suggest that people keep these words to lose words to use posted in sight in mind instead of out of sight out of mind. It's a, I had an opportunity to do some speaking for Kaiser a couple years. I went back and when I walked in the receptionist saw me, no one in the lobby at that moment, she beckoned to be over. She pointed to the words to lose and words to use reminder card that was still taped to her desk. And she said, Sam, I'm the first point of contact. They hired me because I'm really friendly. She said, I never used to understand why people were so mean to me when I was so nice to them. She said, I took your workshop. I realized I'm using all those words on the left all the time. It's like, well, I can't answer that because, well, you'll have to ask your doctor. You have to take this to the pharmacist. You know, it's like, I'm sorry. But she said that. I keep these words right here so I can catch and correct. So I'm about to say, but oops, and you know, should up next time. And she said the difference it has made and how people respond to me and how less stress, how much I enjoy my job has just been really worth it. **Jeff Hunt:** That's wonderful. Well, it just. I'm reflecting on how often people need to be reminded more than they need to be taught. You know, if we have these lists out there and we're reminded, then we can actually embody that behavior. But if we think we're going to teach once and have it done, it's not going to happen. So, I really appreciate that. **Sam Horn:** Wonderful insight. ### Topic 6. Lighting round questions (36:12) **Jeff Hunt:** Okay, Sam, you ready for some lightning round questions? **Sam Horn:** You bet I am. **Jeff Hunt:** The first one is, what are you most grateful for? **Sam Horn:** Well, I have my power three. So, I'm most grateful for that I'm close with my family and friends. I'm most grateful that I get to do work I love that seems to matter. And I'm most grateful that I live on this stream trail in Austin, and I'm out there in nature moving and enjoying and appreciating it every day. **Jeff Hunt:** What's the most difficult leadership lesson you've learned over your career? **Sam Horn:** So I talked about being in the tennis industry. This was not for our labor. This was another situation is that I was given an opportunity at a young age to manage a multi-million dollar tennis club. And I was very flattered. And I said, thank you. They wanted me to be the GM. And I said, thank you. Let me think about it. And I went back and I turned it down. And at the time I thought, what do I know about workman's comp? I'm like 26 years old. What do I know about budgets? What do I want to, what do I know about legality? So see, I thought I was doing the right thing. Well, they hired a jerk who ruined the club in like three months. I left and many of the members left and you know what my epiphany was? I would not have been perfect. I would have been better than him. And furthermore, I could have said to them, Hey, I'm good programs, good people, et cetera. When it comes, we need a CFO though, who's going to teach me or be responsible. So that was my biggest leadership lesson. **Jeff Hunt:** That's great. Yeah. Perfection's the enemy of great, right? Yes. **Sam Horn:** Yes. Although in that case, perfection was the enemy of that job. Yes. **Jeff Hunt:** Exactly. Who is one person you would interview if you could, living or not? **Sam Horn:** Oh, I love your questions. Oh, I am going to say Anne Marie Lindbergh, Gifts from the Sea. I think she was before her time and that she spoke beautifully. It's going to be Henry David Thoreau and Anne Marie Lindbergh in a walk around Walden Pond. And we are going to talk about how We can continue in a high pace world to be present and appreciative and imprint. What matters even in the midst of doing what we can to add value. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received? **Sam Horn:** Receive, receive, receive, revel, revel, revel. It's especially in business, especially if we are high achievers, high performers, if we want to accomplish a lot in our lifetime, that's all outward energy. Mary Oliver said, instructions for a life. Pay attention, be astonished, tell about it. **Jeff Hunt:** Wow, what great advice, Sam. That is a life fulfilled. Is what I'm reflecting on based on what you just shared. So thank you for that. We could go on for hours. I would highly recommend listeners. You go pick up this book. If you haven't already read it, talking on Eggshells and out of all the things that we discussed today, Sam are there one or two really important takeaways that you could leave our listeners with? **Sam Horn:** It is to listen like we like to be listened to. Because I'm going to also project that many of us are fixers, right? I mean, we've got quick minds, right? And somebody tells us something and we immediately think what they could do differently, how to turn that around, et cetera. And yet often, well, you said people like to be reminded more than they'd like to be taught. And people like to be listened to more than they'd like to be told to, right? So maybe it is. To think, who is someone who really listens to us? How do we feel about them? How do they make us feel? And the next time someone comes to us, is that we ask instead of suggest and we go hmm And then we use their words right if they say it's just so frustrating so it's really frustrating yes you know it's like i just don't know what to do so you feel you don't know what to do and they go yes and you know when people involuntarily say yeah yes Do you know what they're saying? I'm understood. So the goal is with the person is to get those involuntary. Yeah. Yeah. And that means we're listening. **Jeff Hunt:** Sam, thank you for bringing all this great wisdom on the show today. I loved our conversation. **Sam Horn:** You're welcome.