77. A Culture of Sales

**Jeff Hunt:** Hey listeners, I'm Jeff Hunt, CEO of Goalspan and host of this Human Capital Podcast. Today, we're going to discuss the intersection of organizational culture and sales strategy. In highly competitive business landscapes, the value of a sales mentality cannot be overstated. A strong sales mindset, emphasizing relationship building, customer focus, and strategic market growth, is not just meant for sales teams, but it's incredibly valuable when applied across all levels of leadership. Some of the most successful CEOs do this exceptionally well. They know how to foster a culture of engagement and motivation among all internal and external stakeholders. This almost always includes prioritizing clear communication, leading with vision, and customer-centric strategies that provide a steady flow of healthy revenue streams, positioning their companies for long-term success and market leadership. With this understanding of the transformative impact of sales leadership, it's my pleasure to introduce a speaker who embodies the essence of this philosophy. Alice Heiman is one of the most competent sales leaders and consultants I know. She is internationally known for her expertise in elevating sales to increase valuation for companies, primarily in the B2B space. Alice works with CEOs and company leaders to build the strategies that find new business and grow existing accounts. Her clients love her spirit and the way she energizes their sales organizations. She's the host of a popular podcast, Sales Talk for CEOs, and she dedicates time to local entrepreneurs by teaching at the University of Nevada in the Entrepreneurship minor, which she helped inspire. Alice also serves on the board of several growing companies to energize and elevate their sales. When she's not guiding CEOs, she can be found hanging out with her family, walking, snow skiing, sailing, and volunteering in her community. Welcome, Alice. **Alice Heiman:** Thank you so much. What a great introduction. **Jeff Hunt:** I'm excited about our conversation because we haven't actually spent much time on the show talking about sales. So, you know, one of the things I mentioned in my intro that we're going to get to is sales is really everybody's job. And sometimes we like to put it over there as a department in the organization that's separate from everyone else. But isn't that the truth? **Alice Heiman:** It is really true. People tell me, "Oh no, no, I'm not in sales." But the thing is that we're all in customer, right? So, if you don't have any customers, your business isn't going to go anywhere, and we can't employ people. So when we say sales, really what we mean is we're all about the customer because without the customer, we don't exist. **Jeff Hunt:** Alice, when you're called into an organization, maybe they have some lackluster sales growth, or they've got some real issues. What are you often seeing? What are some of the common problems when you come in that lead to lackluster sales growth? **Alice Heiman:** Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Sometimes a CEO will call me in when they've got pretty steady growth, but they want something more, right? So they're either thinking of an exit. So, you know, they want to get to a certain point where their company will be more valuable, right? Or they want to do some acquisitions themselves to kind of make their company bigger and more valuable, or they want to take on some kind of debt or equity. And so those are things that trigger them. Sometimes it's also things like I've been through three VPs of sales. It must be me, you know, or in one case, it was six VPs of sales. Wow. And I was like, "Wow. Okay. Like that is definitely not, that is definitely you, not that every VP can't be that bad." So, there's usually something that they want to change. And they're struggling to figure out how to change it, and their own team is unable to make the changes that are needed. So then I come in, and the first thing that I really want to do is understand what's in the CEO's head, right? Especially if they're the founder, and they're going to want to exit at some point. I want to know, what is your exit strategy? What is your timeline for exit? What things do you want to accomplish before you exit? Who are you going to be after you exit? What is this going to look like? Right? And I try to get that out of their head so that I understand where they're going. Because if they're saying, "Oh no, I'm not going to exit for 10 years or more. Here's what I want to build. I'm going to get some equity or some kind of financing. I'm going to build it differently then. I'd like to exit in three years. And here's who I think was going to buy me." That's another thing I was asked. Well, who do you think is going to acquire you? Is it private equity? Is it another company like yours? Is it another company who would be symbiotic with yours? What does that look like? So once I understand what's in their head, then I can take a look at, okay, so where are we today and how did we get here? I don't need to know the painful history totally. I just need to know how did you get here? Did you do all the sales yourself for the first five years? And then you hired a VP of sales who just made it bigger, but you never had process or procedure or anything else in place, so it was just your magic, right? So we need to get some processes and procedures in place and understand, you know, what did you do to get here? So that's the second thing I want to do is figure that out. And then, I really want to look at the people, right? Do you have the right people in the right places doing the right things? And then of course, do you have the right tools in place? So those are the three big areas that I'm going to look at. **Jeff Hunt:** What's your philosophy about sales process? I know a lot of companies, they have a very, you know, prescriptive process. And others are like, "You know what? Just go make some friends." What's your thought? **Alice Heiman:** Yeah, you know, it really is in between those two. So in some companies, they're very prescriptive, and they're like, "Here's how you sell." You know, "You go in, you make the call, you get the appointment, you go in, you do the demo, you do this, you do this, you do this," right? And that's, those are good for some people, right? Especially if you're selling a very simple product that's not very expensive. But when you're selling a complex product, which is what I do, that doesn't work. And I can tell you, because I've tried it and it doesn't work. I had a client once that was very prescriptive and we tried their process for a few weeks and I went to the CEO and I said, "This is not working." And he said, "Well, why?" And I said, "Because your salespeople are ignoring it." And he's like, "What do you mean they're ignoring it?" I'm like, "They're not doing it." So we went and talked to the salespeople and we said, "Well, what's going on?" And they said, "We can't follow this process because it doesn't fit our customers. Our customers don't want to buy like this." So we had to change it, right? So that's the thing. You've got to look at who your customer is, what do they need, and then build the process to fit that. So my philosophy on process is, build a solid foundation, right? That has certain things in it that you know are going to happen every time, but allow for flexibility. So that when your salespeople are in front of a customer and the customer throws them a curve, they can handle it, right? So that they know how to handle that curve, they know how to come back from that, and they can still make the sale. And they're not just like, "Oh, well, sorry, can't help you." **Jeff Hunt:** Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. What about the interplay between the marketing team and the sales team? I've seen in some organizations, they work so well together, and I've seen others where they're just siloed, you know, "That's the sales team, that's the marketing team." What do you see and what do you advise? **Alice Heiman:** Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I, I see a lot of marketing teams that do not work well with sales teams and a lot of sales teams that don't work well with marketing teams. And, and you know, I don't know what that is, but I have seen it quite a lot. And it's really a shame because the, the companies that do it well, I mean, they're making way more money, right? Because they're working together. And so what I advise is that, you know, I actually think that sales should report to marketing. **Jeff Hunt:** Oh, that's interesting. **Alice Heiman:** Yeah. So, and here's why. If you look at who brings the customer in the door, it's marketing, right? So marketing does everything they need to do to create awareness, to, you know, create that interest, to get somebody in the door. And then it's sales job to close the deal, right? So, if sales reports to marketing, marketing can say, "Here are the leads that I've brought you." Right? "Here's where they are in the process. Here's what they've done. Here's what they haven't done." Right? And then sales can say, "Okay, well, here's what I'm doing with those leads. Here's how I'm, I'm working them. Here's what's happening." Right? And then marketing can say, "Well, wait a minute. Why aren't these going to the next step? Right? Like, what's happening here? Why are you stuck?" Right? And then they can work together to figure it out. And then, marketing can say, "Well, wait a minute. I can get them unstuck. Like, I can send them this email or I can send them this white paper or I can send them this case study." Right? And then sales can say, "Well, wait a minute. If you send them that, they're going to want a demo. I can't do a demo right now. I'm, I'm busy." Right? So they work together to figure it out. Right? And then, you know, sales can say, "Well, you know, marketing, I, I've got this big account, right? That I'm, I'm trying to land, but I can't get in. Right? Can you get me in? Can you get me in the door?" Right? And marketing can say, "Well, let me, let me figure out who we know, or let me, let me send them this, or let me, let me send them a direct mail piece or something." Right? So they work together to make sure that they're getting the right leads, that they're converting those leads, that they're keeping those customers, that they're growing those customers, that they're getting referrals from those customers, right? So they work together. **Jeff Hunt:** Yeah. So when you're building a sales organization, how do you know when it's time to add more salespeople? You know, is it, "Oh, we're at our revenue number. We got to add more." Or is it, "We've got too many leads and not enough people." What are your thoughts? **Alice Heiman:** Yeah. You know, I, I think that it, it is, uh, interesting. And I think it is definitely a case-by-case basis, but I think that what you need to look at is, do we have enough people to handle the leads that we have? Right? So are they getting lost? Are they not getting followed up on? Are we dropping the ball? Right? That's the first thing. The second thing is, are we getting the leads that we need? Right? So are we, do we need to get more leads? Or do we need to convert better? Right? So are we converting at the rate that we want? And then the third thing is, do we need to get more customers? Right? So we need more people to go get more customers. Right? So those are the three things that I'm going to look at. **Jeff Hunt:** Yeah. What about that lead conversion? You know, because sometimes we get a lot of leads, but we don't convert. What's, what's your thought process there? **Alice Heiman:** Yeah, you know, it, it is interesting. So I, I was working with a company once, and they had tons of leads, tons of leads, right? But they weren't converting, right? And they were like, "Well, we just need more leads." And I said, "No, you don't. You need to convert the ones you have." So we looked at it and we figured out that, you know, they weren't following up in a timely manner. They weren't getting back to people. They weren't, you know, they were dropping the ball. So we fixed that, right? And we put some processes in place. We put some tools in place. We put some training in place. And they started converting, right? And they were like, "Oh, well, now we're getting way more leads. So now we need more people." I'm like, "No, you don't. You need to convert the ones you have." Right? So that's the thing. You know, sometimes it's not about getting more leads. It's about converting the ones you have. **Jeff Hunt:** Yeah. What about the relationship? Because, you know, this is another thing that we hear about a lot. Who owns the customer relationship? You know, does the sales rep own that relationship? Does the company own that relationship? Is the brand equity so high that the relationship is really more with the product and the services that are delivered? How does that come into play? **Alice Heiman:** You know, I first want to look at the customer and see what do they need to be served well? What do they want? How do they want to be served? I think that's important. But I believe every customer deserves to have more than one touchpoint in an organization. So this is very dependent. I'm not talking about a retail sale. I'm not talking about a more simple business-to-business sale. I work in the world of the complex sale, right? So in a business-to-business complex sale, most of your customers will have enough value to you that they should have multiple touchpoints. So depending on how much value that customer has to your company, you will want to increase the number of touchpoints. So your top 20 customers should know the salesperson, they should know somebody in product, they should know somebody in engineering if that's needed for that. They should know a senior executive. There should be a senior executive that is a sponsor for that, and they should have access to your CEO right at the highest level, their CEO or their general manager. The right person should be introduced to the CEO and have that access. So at the highest level, with the customers that have the most value to you, you will want to make sure there are multiple touchpoints throughout your organization and theirs, matching people up, remembering that people don't stay in organizations very long anymore. So if you only have one contact and that contact leaves, you're in pretty big trouble. And I see it happen every single day. It's disastrous. So you never want to leave it that just the salesperson has the relationship. So again, I would rank and rate my customers and determine how many touchpoints they should have based on the value that they currently have to my company or the value that they could have in the future with growth, and make sure that there are enough touchpoints and that people are connected at like levels, and the people who need to be connected with engineers or product specialists are, and the people who need to be connected with customer success are, the people who need your senior executives are connected to your senior executives. So I believe in multiple touchpoints. And in the customer base that is not as valuable to you for whatever reason, it's just maybe not spending as much money or able to spend as much or able to do as much with your products and services and go as deep into that product line, you still want to support them and you never want to have only your salesperson as a touchpoint, because salespeople's average tenure at a company is pretty short. I mean, we know that for lower-level sales development reps, business development reps, AEs, it's something around 18 to 22 months. And then as people age and become more senior in sales, they do stay around a little longer. But I don't know what the averages are, but I'm seeing it to be maybe three to five years. So if you have customers for life, which is what we all want, over time they're going to have new people interfacing with them. So it's best to have a multitude of people and at least maybe an account executive, their account manager, a customer success person, and someone in a department that is not directly sales, right, who has some connections. So that if somebody leaves in either organization, you are still well connected and the new people who come into your customer organizations are not going to immediately go try to find a new solution. So I recommend many touchpoints and marketing certainly can be one of them because marketing can address in a one-to-many way many of the questions and needs and product updates and things that can just be going out right to your customers seamlessly and they feel like they're being touched, right? So marketing can certainly help with that. But yeah, we do need organizations to be multi-threaded into their customers for sure. **Jeff Hunt:** And it sounds like the multiple touchpoints is extremely helpful. I'm wondering if taking it to the next level and understanding how much the customer values each of those touchpoints is also helpful. Because if I know that the customer places a 90% relational value on the connection with the senior sales representative versus some other form, then I may want to address that because that could be a risk for the organization versus if I have it more diversified. **Alice Heiman:** It is a big risk because salespeople tend to go rogue sometimes. So we want to be careful, right? We need more than one line in. So if they're saying, "Oh no, I only want to talk to my rep," well, this is a problem because they call in and they're calling the rep for things that they shouldn't be calling the rep for. We need our sales reps to sell, and if they're handling customer problems, they're doing things that engineering should be dealing with or things that another department should be dealing with, they're being pulled away from their selling time. But if we have an organization such that when a customer calls in, no one else will return their call except the sales rep, we've created this problem for ourselves. And I've seen it many times. Customer success, customer support just won't get back to people in a timely manner. So what do they do? They go call the original sales rep that sold them the deal and say, "Hey, nobody in your company is getting back to me." And while sales reps don't want to lose a customer, they're going to do whatever it takes, and it's definitely going to pull them away from selling. So this is the sales leadership's job to make sure this isn't happening. And so with the CEO, have to say, "Look, here's the kind of problems that our sales reps are encountering every day from customers. You need to set something up for another department to handle these because they're not sales-related and they're not revenue-generating, but they are retention issues if we don't solve them." And so it's important, but I think a lot of times, I don't know what it is, but boy, CEOs and leaders somehow think that salespeople can work miracles and they can work 70 hours a week and they can do all their sales and handle all these customer complaints and they really can't and we're burning them out. **Jeff Hunt:** It's asking too much. It is. Yeah, exactly. **Alice Heiman:** But a salesperson is never going to let their customer just dangle. They won't do it. It doesn't matter how many times you tell them. If their customer isn't getting a response, they're going down. **Jeff Hunt:** Absolutely. Now, when you reflect on your most successful engagements with clients over the years, what are the three, four, five things that you've seen that have been common among those successes? **Alice Heiman:** I think that CEOs who are open-minded, agile, and flexible, right? Who understand that change will have to occur for them to get what they want. And not that they can't push back, because I think that's good to have healthy dialogue around everything that you're going to be making changes around. But they have to understand that what they're doing now isn't working for a reason. And many times it's just because it worked 20 years ago. It doesn't work anymore. It just doesn't work that way anymore. Right? Or even worked five years ago before COVID. It doesn't work anymore. So they have to understand that what they're doing doesn't work. And they have to be of the mindset that they have to change first and be the model if they want everyone else. So they have to model the way, right? They have to believe, they have to voice that belief. They have to voice that vision. So and they have to help everyone understand why these changes are going to make their company thrive. And if they don't do that, and they just impose the changes, it doesn't work. **Jeff Hunt:** Love that. As we get ready to wrap up, are you ready for some lightning round questions? **Alice Heiman:** Oh, sure. Go ahead. **Jeff Hunt:** All right. First one is, what are you most grateful for? **Alice Heiman:** Oh, gosh. My family. I mean, truly, truly, I have the most amazing family and I love them all dearly and we're all very close and they are my best friends and I am just so deeply grateful for them. **Jeff Hunt:** What's the most difficult leadership lesson that you've learned over your career? **Alice Heiman:** Oh, gosh, so many, so many. I think that what I've learned to do is to help people change without pushing so much. I think in my youth, I was very much like, "You're just gonna do this and it's gonna work," you know, like push the solution, push my beliefs, push what I wanted to change, knowing in my mind that it was best for them, right? and I think that the lesson is people can have the capacity to change, but they have to do it in their own way and in their own time. And that my job is to guide that, not to inflict it, right, on anyone. And so I've had to learn how to temper things, temper my ideas, and learn how to communicate in a way that helps them learn and grow and come into the change on their own in a way that makes it possible for it to really happen.