51. The Compassionate Leader

Intro: Duration: (01:14)

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Jeff Hunt:

Hi. I'm Jeff Hunt CEO of GoalSpan and your host of Human Capital where we uncover the deeply human aspect of work. The way we work has dramatically and permanently shifted over the last few years and these changes require a new kind of leadership. The best leaders learn how to walk alongside employees with whatever they are going through, celebrating joys and successes or in the midst of grief, anxiety, or uncertainty.

According to McKinsey, the employees’ relationship with their manager is the number one factor in their job satisfaction. Today I have a special guest joining me on the show to explore his new book Compassionate Leadership. Rasmus Hougaard is the founder and CEO of Potential Project, which is a global research and consulting firm with over 250 consultants across 28 countries, they are on a mission to create a more human world of work and to help unlock the potential for new behaviors and different outcomes.

Today, Rasmus and I are going to talk about how to develop leaders that are both higher performing, and more human. Welcome, Rasmus!

Rasmus Hougaard:

Thanks so much, Jeff, a pleasure to be here.

Topic 1. Who or what inspired you along your career journey? (01:15)

Jeff Hunt:

It's great to have you on the show and very passionate about this topic. So, I think we're gonna have a great conversation. Let's start with a thumbnail of your career journey. So, our listeners can get to know you a little bit, take us back to the beginning of your career, and share who or what inspired you most along the way?

Rasmus Hougaard:

I would say my career started before like a normal career when I was about 17 I traveled to Asia, and I ended up living in Nepal for a while and Northern India and I met some Buddhist masters, including Dalai Lama, which was a great inspiration for me on how to live an ethical, compassionate, and I would say wise life and they taught me a lot of practices that really helped me to hone my own focus my own presence, and deepen my sense of connection with others.

And hence my let's say compassion and care. That's really what has been laying the foundation for me, then I became a researcher, and that was great. I joined the corporate world, which was fun, but just too meaningless, and that's when I started to contemplate the idea of the Potential Project basically brings together some of these wisdom traditions, all those amazing methods and wisdom in there.

With research and you know the real, fast-paced corporate world. That's how Potential Project came about, and what has shaped my life.

Jeff Hunt:

And was there any one person or certain people that really inspired you earlier in your career?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Yeah, I guess there's always a lot, but definitely, number one would again, be Dalai Lama. He once said to me, something along the lines of: “There is just one you, but there are billions of other human beings and like trillions of sentient beings. So, stop worrying so much about yourself, and rather ask yourself, what can you do for others?”.

And that was really like a trigger point for me in getting out of my own head and just looking at how can I have the biggest positive impact for the biggest number of people in the short lifetime that I'm undeserved? That was really a pivotal moment, so I would say definitely, Dalai Lama.

Topic 2. How to be a compassionate leader? (03:29)

Jeff Hunt:

I'm excited to jump into your book. And as I reflect on our discussion, leaders are under so much pressure today, one of the things I'd like you to just talk a little bit about is how, as a leader, can you care for your people, but also still do the very difficult things that leadership requires?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Yeah, that's the million-dollar question. And when we started contemplating doing another book, we basically interviewed some, I think, around 75 executives, and we asked them, what's the most challenging for you? And all of them in different words said something along the lines of I can make billion-dollar decisions, and I will sleep totally fine that night. But I have to give feedback, lay someone off to a restructure page, do hard things, and you know, I can't sleep for three nights.

So that is at the crux of the trickiness of being a leader is having to do these hard things. And then many leaders think because of all school management thinking that either you choose to be a nice person that people like, or you become a really hard-nosed guy who drives results. And what we started to see in our research is that that's an absolutely false dichotomy.

We can bring these together, not we can, we should, because what our research showed that if you bring up care for your people, while also having the wisdom to drive for strong results, the engagement of your people, the results of your people, the loyalty of your people, the stress levels of your people, will be way, way, way, way better. So it is imperative for leaders to learn to bring these things together.

And what we then did in our research was basically finding out how to do that, and the ultimate model, there's what we call the wise compassion flywheel which is basically the four practices of caring, presence, sorry, caring courage, caring candor, and caring transparency. And I can unfold that more people can read the book, but that's ultimately what it takes.

Jeff Hunt:

I would like to get into those four. And before I do, I'm just sort of reflecting on what you're saying. So basically, you're saying that in the old school, it felt like more of a binary choice, it was either making the tough decision or being human, but they're not mutually exclusive. In reality, and in truth, they are actually aligned, is that right?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Absolutely. Doing hard things, if you do that, in the right way, is to be compassionate, for the simple reason that there's not a single person in the workforce anywhere in the world that doesn't want to grow, develop, get promoted, or have a great career. But the way it's a great career is not to be told all the time, oh, you're great, you're doing awesome.

It is by being told, hey, that can be different. Here, you said this, try and tweak it this way, it is through the resistance that we get greater, and therefore as a leader, being able to do the hard things is a compassionate thing to do. You just need to do it with the caring aspects.

Topic 3. Compassion or empathy, what's the difference? (06:28)

Jeff Hunt:

So let's talk about compassion a little bit more, I think people tend to get confused about the difference between compassion and empathy. Can you share your thoughts? Because you've done a lot of research in this area? And what is the difference?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Yeah, there's a ton of difference. And it's right, we always think of them as the same thing. Empathy is in short when you see someone who suffers, and you sit down with them, and you suffer with them. And it may sound dumb when I present it like that, it's actually a really amazingly beautiful thing. It is the hallmark of human existence, the fact that we can see in the facial expression of someone else, that that person is in pain.

And then because of mirror neurons, we feel the same, like that's incredible. And empathy is what has made us grow into families, tribes, communities, societies, countries, and companies. Because we empathize with other people is amazing. But empathy is literally suffering with others that suffer and in leadership, while it is a good thing to have empathy because it allows you to connect with others, they know that you know how they feel, it won't help you to help them.

So, there we need to move into compassion. Compassion is an intention, not an emotion. It is an intention, I'm here to help you. So, compassionate leadership is when you see someone who suffers, you experience what they feel for a moment, and then you choose to not get hijacked by that emotion. But rather ask yourself, What can I do to help? And then you go into action mode. And action mode could be like solving a problem.

But that's bad leadership. Rather, you should ask questions and coach them or simply just lend an ear so that they can find their way out of the problem. That's where compassion is. So basically, empathy + action = compassion.

Jeff Hunt:

So compassion really helps them move through whatever they are dealing with versus empathy, they could be staying in that space. It can be very difficult to be a compassionate leader, say a little bit more about how we can exercise these muscles? How we can create a greater sense of self-leadership and presence at work as a leader to become more compassionate?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Good one, let's just take a step back and just unfold, why is it that it is hard to be compassionate when we get busy? And I just use an analogy because it helps a lot of people to remind themselves so, the Chinese syllable for busyness consists of two syllables, one being killing and the other one being the heart. Chinese is a very wise language that is really based on psychology and wisdom and so on.

So, the insight here is basically when we get really busy, we kill the connection with our heart and become very heart-centered, very rational. And we don't think about others' emotions and needs and so on. So, how do we as leaders that are busy, train ourselves to be more caring and compassionate? The first thing is to acknowledge that leadership is a skill like it's something that we need to train and develop.

And most of us are promoted into leadership roles because we're good at doing the job. And we need to really realize that doing the same thing as we used to, it's not going to make us good leaders, making us good leaders is about listening to other people and understanding their needs, their motivations drivers.

So that we can help them to be passionate about the work that they're doing. So, leadership and compassion are all about changing your mindset from being a performer, and an executor to being someone who helps people perform and execute, and doing that through care and compassion. So, it's a mindset shift.

Jeff Hunt:

One of the things I took away from what you just said, is the critical aspect of listening, and listening skills. And I imagine that learning to listen to understand instead of listening to respond, is probably at the core of that, wouldn't you say?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Very much listen 75% of the time and give some input 25 I think that's a pretty good ratio.

Topic 4. Fighting burnout, examples of great and compassionate leaders (10:41)

Jeff Hunt:

With compassion. If you think about compassion and empathy. And the last couple of years of this collective trauma that we've experienced with the pandemic, yeah, it's created this environment where a lot of people are feeling burned out, and they're switching roles. Rasmus, can you just comment for a minute about the correlation between burnout relative to empathy and compassion?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Yeah, it's an especially strong correlation that is a great question. In this collective trauma, as you call that, you know, people were suffering like crazy east and west. And as leaders, if we show up with empathy, and meet a lot of our employees that are suffering because we sit down and we suffer with them, we take on a load of suffering, and that can lead to our own burnout.

And we've seen that, and the fact that 87% of leaders in the US specifically have been considering changing job over the pandemic, is because of this, it's just getting too heavy. Whereas if, as leaders, we learn to avoid the empathetic hijack, and rather move into compassion, what research has shown and what we see it through all the client work we do is it leads to a strong sense of empowerment, Hey, I see people suffering. And man, I can do things to alleviate that, wow, that is amazing.

The sense of joy, much stronger engagement from the people you're leading, and a sense of much more connectedness with everybody. So, there's just a whole load of positive emotions and outputs coming from that.

Jeff Hunt:

It seems like the ultimate evolution of the compassionate leader is the compassionate culture. And I would just clarify that when we are compassionate, we can still have very high performance, and we can expect high performance from those that are around us. Yeah, there's a great story about a culture that is compassionate based on Marriott Corporation. I know you know a lot about that, and I'm wondering if you can share a little bit about what your learnings were and what we can all learn from Marriott?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Yeah. Well, where to start, I just want to say Marriott is one example. There are lots of great examples. Like I will say Unilever, IKEA, Patagonia, many, many organizations that really do this, but Marriott I will say, particularly doing an amazing job. Historically, you know, Marriott was founded by a wonderful young couple, who had a strategy from the beginning. In their first little shop, which was, if we take care of our people, they'll take care of our guests and business will take care of itself.

I just always loved that whole slogan or strategy, as they called it. As a family business, they really took care of people. And that kind of leadership led to a culture throughout the globe with I mean, half a million or more employees nowadays, have a leadership culture of a really strong sense of care. And then you may think, Oh, that's a nice story, but you know, I've met most of the executive team and spent quite some time with Arne Sorenson, who, unfortunately, passed last year was, by the way, voted CEO of the Year, in 2019.

Just an extraordinary human being that, yeah, very strong business driver, performer, strategic thinker, but man a level of care for his people. It's wonderful to see these icons of Compassionate Leadership. And I mean, Marriott is doing well, it's one of the biggest companies in the world. There's no doubt this is a good business strategy.

Jeff Hunt:

Well, and it makes me think that how important the founder's values are, in terms of ultimately defining the culture of an organization, right?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Oh, absolutely. So so so so true. Yeah, I'll give another example that has really touched me over the years is Southwest Airlines with the founder Herb Keller, who put compassion back in the 60s as like one of the core values of the company. Back then you didn't talk about compassion business, but you know, he was not the standard CEO.

And that is I think to the day today, as part of the research for the book, we interviewed Ryan the current CEO, who basically said, as an airline, going through a pandemic, with nobody flying, you need to have deep pockets and helpful bank connections. Because he has simply made the decision, we're not going to lay people off.

People have been with the airline for decades and giving their lifeblood to this airline, we are not going to just lay them off, because we're seeing a bad time these days. So just that incredible, compassionate commitment to the people that have offered their life to the organization. And you know, the astounding level of loyalty and engagement they have in that organization is just profound. It pays back. It's a very virtuous circle.

Jeff Hunt:

And it's really remarkable thinking about it, because the investment in those people during that hardship, ultimately does pay huge financial dividends in the long run, because people stay turnovers lower the culture is better, they will perform higher, isn't that the truth?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Yeah, it's that simple. And then again, we should not get naive about it and say, Oh, it's all about caring for people. It has to be wise compassion, which means care, but with a strong sense of business drive business acumen, doing the right things, and doing the hard things when they are required, it has to go hand in hand.

Topic 5. Male leaders vs female leaders (16:25)

Jeff Hunt:

For sure. Let's shift and talk about the research you've done on the specific leadership differences between men and women, males and females, right, as well as their deficiencies. And by the way, we should preface this by mentioning that the data that you collected for those that are identifying as non-binary was too small of a sample size to include in the analysis, right? Share a little bit about what you learned, Rasmus and the differences between men and women.

Rasmus Hougaard:

And maybe we should broaden and say, between, generally considered female versus masculine leadership qualities, because that is another way of talking about it, which includes the non-binary. So, there's a number of data points here that were just very, very strong and very, very empowering for a certain gender women. And I was so happy when I saw the data and not much data has been collected on on leaders and gender and the impact they have.

Basically, data showed very consistently, that females are better leaders, there are four constellations in leaders, there's a female leading a female, there's a female leading male, there's a male leading a female, and a male leading a male, the best constellation is a female leading a female. The Second best is a female, leading and male. The third is a male leading a female, and the worst is a male leading a male. And I mean, you can do the math and see what is the magic sauce there, when a female is involved, better results, basically.

So, that's one thing that was interesting. Another thing that was equally or possibly even more interesting, is that females rate themselves as not very compassionate and not very wise. So basically, not the best leaders, whereas males rate themselves as really good leaders good at caring and good at wisdom and clarity. When they are rated by their followers, it is the exact opposite both genders have a delusion in terms of how they lead females from a positive perspective and males from a negative perspective, basically.

So, for all the females out there listening to this today, the whole conversations that are around diversity and inclusion, and all of that, and especially gender, you know, it's good for the bottom line, and so on. But it's good for people. And remember, ladies and those that identify most as feminine, you are better leaders and trust yourself in that period.

Jeff Hunt:

And so just as an add on to that there may be some male identifying leaders that feel threatened associated with this, but I want you to set them at ease because the skills that you mentioned earlier, which I believe are focused around presence, courage, candor, transparency, are actually malleable, they're skills that can be developed. And if we do them exceptionally well, it doesn't really matter what gender you are, you can excel fast. So, say a little bit about that, Rasmus.

Rasmus Hougaard:

Yeah, we can all learn, we can all become better. And there were two practices. That in the research it was very, very clear that will help both genders to even become better. The first one is a mindfulness practice. Mindfulness practice helps our self-awareness thereby helping us see the impact we have on others, and thereby modifying our behavior to basically be better at leading.

Mindfulness particularly is very healthy for females who have that perception that they're not as good leaders. as they actually are the other practice the practice of compassion, which can be practiced in many different ways that are described in the book, which is a particularly important for males, or more masculine oriented leaders.

And it is all about perspective taking, taking the perspective of other people that you are with, that helps you to develop your care, and your concern for other beings seeing their perspective and thereby being a better leader for them. So, mindfulness and compassion are the two, unlocks for both genders. But mindfulness is mostly for the feminine-oriented and compassion for the masculine-oriented.

Jeff Hunt:

That's great. And so before we move off this topic of gender, and men and women and the differences, I want to share just a few statistics that I heard yesterday from WSJ through a Wharton study, there's actually a lot of improvement that's happening for women leaders, that it takes less time for women than men to reach leadership positions, two to four years less than men for the top 10 leadership positions.

The overall number of female leaders is actually increasing pretty dramatically from 11% 20 years ago to 27% today, but in the C suite, it's still very much lacking. So, there's only 6% of either Chief Operating Officer, president, or CEO positions are held by women. And the reality is that as leaders, we don't have to wait to pick women leaders. And there are some things that are creating some sea change things like shareholder pressure, the opportunity to require demographics when RFPs are submitted, and things like that.

But what I'd like you to wrap up this part of our conversation with Rasmus is, what are some strategies that you recommend to better attract and retain and promote more women into positions of leadership?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Yeah, I think the first question is actually not how you attract and retain them, but how you make sure you promote them. Because that's, you know, where the glass ceiling is in the way, and it's we're gonna see the C suite. You know, it's polling numbers in terms of female CEOs in the Fortune 500 list. I mean, what are we up to now? Very, very few, a handful at best. So, there's that awareness that has to sit at the boards on, it's also about the promoting, but there's a lot of this wishes around empowerment and giving the space because as we know, females are great leaders.

Giving them the space to unfold is really, really important. But one strategy from one of our clients that were really impressive, very, very bold and provocative at the beginning, but it's proven to be incredibly effective was at Accenture, you know, one of the biggest companies of the world. And what is it now, five years ago, Ellen shook the chief HR officer, extremely visionary. She said by 2023, I think it was, we will have to be at a 5050 throughout your entire organization. And everybody was like, wow, not achievable. Not possible.

What are we going to do with older males, we're going to fire them blah, blah, blah. They were some 430,000 people back then, there today at 750,000 people I mean, they have grown, is incredible. And in that achieved a 5050 I mean, they did it. And now their CEO, you know, Judy sweet is a woman, even. So that's just an example of setting a goal and saying this is non-negotiable, it has to go through all business units or geographies. You just do it. It does require very strong CHR O which Evan clearly is and it's just had the backing of the former CEO and the current CEO. But it's possible, but it requires that you actually do it.

Jeff Hunt:

Well, and you're making the case for the importance of measuring it as well. If we measure it, then we can actually achieve the results. If we're not measuring it. It's ambiguous, and then we don't know where we're at.

Rasmus Hougaard:

Yeah, absolutely. And the biases, the unconscious biases, which are unconscious, and therefore, it's nobody's fault. We are still seeing males as stronger leaders. I mean, we're just perceiving that and it's silly. And that's why I'm so happy to see the results. And I'm really propagating the knowledge that females are amazing leaders.

Topic 6. Mindfulness at work, a brief mindfulness exercise (24:24)

Jeff Hunt:

Yes, exactly. So, one of the things you mentioned was the importance of presence and mindfulness, at work and in life. And I think there are a lot of misconceptions around what this means and how it shows up. And there are several disciplines that you can share. One of them is meditation, which can help us improve our mindfulness and presence. First of all, I'd like to ask you, Rasmus, what are some common fears and misconceptions about this concept of mindfulness and meditation for that matter?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Yeah, the general misconception is that it's some soft woo-woo stuff that's gonna make me slow and emotional. Along those lines, fortunately, it's not as bad as it was, like 10 years ago, but it would be along those lines, which is obviously very wrong because it's actually a pretty hard discipline to practice mindfulness, training, our self-awareness, our presence, our focus takes effort, takes work is hard.

Jeff Hunt:

Okay. And it's interesting, because it is really in all of the major spiritual traditions for 1000s of years, correct?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Yeah, it is, there's not a single spiritual or religious tradition or school that hasn't practiced mindfulness in one shape or the other, maybe there are a few, but very, very little. It goes in our veins and our DNA for 1000s of years, and we just have forgotten a bit about it.

Jeff Hunt:

So, I'm gonna take a risk and ask you to take us through very brief mindfulness or meditation exercise, maybe just a couple of minutes to help people understand how this can deepen their presence. Would you mind doing that for our listeners?

Rasmus Hougaard:

I would be happy to thank you for the invitation. So, let's take a few minutes and I'll invite you to close your eyes. And just start by bringing a bit of awareness to the experience of being in your body right now. Just simply notice the tactical sensations of your body as you experience it at this moment. Allowing your awareness to come to present at this moment.

And inviting a sense of awareness of the breath. Breath is always here and it connects your body and your mind and you cannot think of other things if you are pressing with the press. So just bring a bit of attention to the inflow and the outflow of your breathing.

As you're breathing in, follow the breath and as you're breathing out, follow the out-breath. Allowing yourself to let go of everything you come from anticipations of what will come next and just fully being present here and now with your breath and with your body.

And when that's when you can let go of the practice, open your eyes and come back to this podcast.

Jeff Hunt:

Thank you for that. That was a gift. It was a small gift in the midst of a busy day. And the opportunity to stop and reflect and step out of the busyness is inspiring. I think what I'm reflecting on personally, and this is one of my regular practices as well, and I've benefited so much but what I'm reflecting on most is how helpful it is to not be thinking about the past, or what's happened in the past or what's coming in the future or what I would what my agenda is what I'd like what I have to do, and even though those things may enter in, I can sort of let them float away and just be in the present moment, right?

Rasmus Hougaard:

So true. And life becomes richer. We become more focused, and more efficient, we can get stuff done so we can enjoy our meals, joy, and the good sides of life as well.

Jeff Hunt:

Exactly. It's interesting because I think presence in conversation is also the best gift that you can give somebody if you are truly present and focused on what they are saying and you're not looking at your phone or looking around the room or looking for another conversation or thinking about what you need to do next, that is truly a gift to give somebody isn't it?

Rasmus Hougaard:

It is, absolutely. It very much is, we actually spend so much time at this with our clients and early days that we decided to write a book about it. So, one second ahead, enhance your performance with mindfulness.

Because mindfulness you know, it's about the discipline of enhancing your poor performance of enjoying life, your performance of being present with others, doing the work you need to do you know, it's an inner skill that is incredibly powerful. It's not soft and woo-woo, it's a discipline.

Topic 7. Lighting round questions (30:27)

Jeff Hunt:

Yes. Okay, great. So, are you ready for the lightning round?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Let's go for it, I’m curious.

Jeff Hunt:

So, my first question for Rasmus is what are you most grateful for?

Rasmus Hougaard:

I am most grateful for my parents that have brought me to this life, which I find to be a hard and challenging experience, but also incredibly beautiful.

Jeff Hunt:

What's the most difficult leadership lesson you've learned over your career?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Most difficult was once I made the mistake of sending an email that was angry copying and people in the team. And the outpour of resentment from everyone on the team just was so humbling for me. And I will never, ever do that again. If you have a problem with a person, you take it just with that person.

And you do it always with care. And I didn't do it just with the person and I didn't do it just with care. And man, I had my ass kicked, rightfully so, thank you, all of my colleagues out there that remember this, especially Paula, thank you email was healthy.

Jeff Hunt:

There's so much learning in our mistakes. So much to learn. Who is one person you would interview if you could living or not?

Rasmus Hougaard:

Mahatma Gandhi is the first that comes to mind. But if I go even further back, you know, Jesus, that would be a treat, and Buddha that would also be pretty sweet.

Jeff Hunt:

By the way, regarding your book, we're going to put your book on my recommended books list on our podcast website. But I'm curious for you, Rasmus, what is a top book recommendation? What books have you been reading? And what do you recommend?

Rasmus Hougaard:

There's going to sound provocative from a guy who has been propagating and supporting people to be high performing. There's a book I read over the summer that was deeply inspiring. It's called do nothing by Celeste. I can't remember her last name but go on Amazon. It's called do nothing by Celeste something is an extraordinary book about how we are overworking and doing too much. It's counterproductive. It doesn't give us what we're looking for. Yeah, do nothing. Great book.

Jeff Hunt:

And what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Rasmus Hougaard:

That was from the former CEO of Marriott Arne Sorenson, who told that how the founder of Marriott, had these three words that were like his leadership mantra, what do you think that's four words? What do you think? The whole point is, do we have time for a short story? So, this young Bill Marriott was invited to meet with the President of the United States at the farm of the President.

Many, many years ago, it was pouring rain. And they were a group of businesspeople together there. And Bill Merritt was still a young guy. And all these strong big businessmen, they were like doubting should they go out doing the hunting, which was the plan, despite the fact that it was pouring rain, and depressed and turns to Bill Marriott and asks, What do you think? And you know, this young guy just finds it extraordinary that the President asked for his opinion.

And he just made that his mantra. So, in all meetings throughout his life, board meetings, whatever he would sit, you would ask a question, like something you've been reflecting on a big strategic issue, whatever. And he would then ask, what do you think? And he would let the whole of you know, table like sharing their opinions, their thoughts, not saying anything himself, because he didn't want to be biased by his own thoughts.

And he will basically synthesize the best of all the thinking of all these smart people that he had brought into the organization. And then he would come up with like a synthesis of that, and then present that as a way forward. And I just think this very inclusive way of leading is not just inclusive, but it is definitely smart because it makes you as the leader seems like the smartest person in the room, because you don't say you're done the opinions first, but you just learned from all the best. So, what do you think?

Jeff Hunt:

What's the single most important takeaway from our time together, Rasmus?

Rasmus Hougaard:

I'm going to put that back to you. Your presence in this conversation has made it so easy for me to be present and just share what comes up. So, to me, it's a testament to the fact that presence really brings out the best in the people you're with. So, thank you for that. Really appreciate it.

Jeff Hunt:

Thank you, Rasmus, for bringing so much wisdom to our listeners today.

Rasmus Hougaard:

Pleasure, thank you so much for the invitation.

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Outro(35:08)

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Jeff Hunt:

Thanks for listening to the show this week. We release new episodes every other Tuesday. Let me know what you thought of this episode by emailing humancapitalgoalspan.com. Human capital is produced by GoalSpan. Subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts. And please share this podcast with your colleagues, team, or friends. Thanks for being human kind.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, leaders, Rasmus, compassion, compassionate, mindfulness, book, leadership, female, gender, empathy, male, Marriott, practices, share, CEO, organization, research, business, years

SPEAKERS

Rasmus Hougaard, Jeff Hunt